Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by runaways, Nov 9, 2016.
This forum truly is dead.
it looks that way!
This is a sort of Trump thread, isn't it?
As Barack Obama put it 'crude nationalism' won it for Trump, and won it for vote leave too.
I think the democratic party's failure to engage with the working class is also to blame. It's embarrassing really, because Bernie really could have done that if he was in that position.
How bad must a candidate have to be for them to lose to Donald Trump?
I'm sick of hearing about "liberal elite" this and "social justice that" but sometimes the left do it to themselves. After Brexit everyone who voted leave was a racist, couldn't possibly have voted leave because they disagree with the elitist capitalist fortress that is the EU?
An elitist capitalist fortress, yesterday:
Yeah, they are absolute scum...
but I don't think the EU are much better in terms of their exclusion on countries they don't deem prosperous or wealthy enough to be part of their little club. I'm not saying we should have said LEAVE NOW because of the Tory government.
"you share your sweets with them, them, them and them but don't share them with them or them, or if you do share with them... make sure they get less than us"
I dunno man, I just don't think in the long run the EU is a progressive inclusive organisation at all, and there has to be more of a reason than "crude nationalism" to people voting to leave the EU and voting in Donald Trump. As much as I love Obama, I think those comments are equally as divisive and put people back in the position of blaming racists for leaving the EU.
If you voted to remain in the EU, just remember that's a tick in the box for an organisation, or whatever they are, who let thousands of African refugees die in the Mediteranian.
I guess leave or remain, was a choice like Trump or Clinton. But didnt people vote against Cameron?
I would love to get immigration down to low numbers. I like Trumps idea of import tariffs, but will it ever happen.
We cannot bomb Syria and Iraq, and then complain when masses of people head this way, fleeing the war that we created.
I dont think its racist to favour the people from your own country, people that have been paying taxes into the system for years. But yet social housing for the British people is not allowed.
Its a mess who ever we vote for, but in my opinion, Trump and vote leave will make things worse.
How bad must a candidate have to be for them to lose to Hillary Clinton?
Save the diagnoses and post-mortems. Don't think about how it happened. Think about what you're gonna do about it.
The sad truth is that a lot of politics has failed.
Go look for some pictures from Theresa May's speech the other day. Opulent setting, £300 bottles of wine, gold everywhere. And she has the fucking gall to talk about taking it to the elites, just like privately educated millionaire stockbroker "man of the people" Nigel Farage does (£6.5k a month, plus expenses, from an institution he despises).
Theresa's married to a director of pet government provider G4S, by the way.
Nice work if you can get it.
But you can't. You're not in the loop.
Trump will do the square root of **** all for all those "Honest Joes" who voted for him. He's just a hater. He won't "clear the swamp". He won't "build a wall". He won't "lock her up". He might not even to get to wank off over the deportations.
He'll build a tight machine that'll turn off any debate, though. That's the scariest bit.
Also, if you're watching the things that happen if you do object, that gets really interesting. You become a member of the "special snowflake" generation. Doesn't matter how old you are, btw - just get in the fucking box, y'know? Shut down that debate with a label.
Obviously you have to ignore the HUGE FUCKING IRONY of a load of rich white powerful dudes not accepting any criticism at all, but it's worth a go just to take the punch.
If anybody's got any great working examples of a right-wing regime benefiting the people it claims to champion actually working to good effect, I'm all ears.
Please don't tell me that the alternative is communism, and that communism was shit. That's not what I'm asking for.
I am asking for a specific, successful example of the success of the sort of right-wing nationalist populism that Trump espouses. Just one that worked. Anybody?
Immigration is great for the country, if you're a global businesses or a city-dwelling liberal with the means to enjoy different kinds of street food. It's not so great for families living in one damp room because the government is selling off all the social housing and there's nowhere near enough to go around, whilst their kids struggle through failing inner city schools where 90% of the pupils don't speak English. The main problem with the liberal left is the failure to recognise or legitimise the concerns of people who are actually, through no choice of their own, having to deal with the social problems immigration can cause. Not because immigration is bad, it's not, but because the infrastructure isn't equipped to deal with it on gound level, and those with the power to change that simply don't care. It's no wonder shit's kicking off really.
Immigration is bad, in the numbers that are coming in.
And its encouraged, but it should be discouraged. We cannot and should not stop it 100%, because some of our guys want to move too.
We just need to make sure employers do not need better qualified people, train our own.
Make coming here a little less attractive by making people pay a little more, not as easy inside the EU, make them pay more for healthcare and housing etc; they havnt paid into the tax system for the NHS for years, housing and schools.
Bit of a broad brush approach there, maybe? I live in a city, I don't think I've ever eaten street food, and I work for a company that employs about 300 people. It's a "global" business in that we have something like 20 offices and we sell products to lots of countries.
That's not the fault of immigrants; that's the fault of government, as you acknowledge.[/QUOTE]
Again, if you're talking about social housing here, that's a failure of government. They'll get you to somehow think it's the fault of the council, but ultimately it's a central government funding thing
Who funds schools? Where does the money come from? Locally the council, but ultimately central government. Don't like local schools? Here you go, have some academies and faith schools. Who's objected to them the most? Those loony left liberal teachers. I know three teachers. Two of them now work abroad and one has gone feral doing supply and private tuition. Why? Gove, academies and faith schools.
I'd argue that the problem with the "liberal left" - by which I mean the watered-down, Tory-lite Labour Party - is that they never addressed the economic reality of the people that they should have been representing. It could be argued that they never had a chance, given the way that certain parts of the press turned on them post-Blair and post-Iraq. The real failure, for me, was bailing out the banks. There was an opportunity there to say "Hey, kids, global capitalism's fucked. See what happens when you let the markets ruin everything". But Brown bottled it. Miliband also bottled it every fucking week in PMQs with Cameron's "Labour ruined the economy" taunts.
Since then, the media's gone nuts on Corbyn, everything's moved further to the right, everybody hates everybody else, and somebody has to be to blame. Global capitalism requires the free movement of labour, and people undercutting each other's wages. The competitiveness of manufacturing industries requires the same. Chinese companies are outsourcing to Africa; the cheapest trying to save costs by employing the poorest.
Where does this end? Hating your neighbour or hating the system that put them next door to you? Global capitalism is based on unlimited aspiration, and the advertising says as much. "Work hard for a better life", they say. It's a false promise, total bullshit. You're just as much as a victim as the immigrant family next door. Haves and have-nots. It suits the agenda of the status quo for you NOT to get on; it suits them to make you compete, to hate, to live in fear of each other and them.
It's all completely unsustainable and fucked. And it's enabling a load of "alt-right" types to act like proper, actual Nazis and cry like babies when you point it out.
I'm glad I'm old. I won't have to deal with the consequences.
I'm currently in the USA and arrived the day of the election results. There appeared to be shock on the day, but like Brexit, a sudden feeling that their world wasn't just going to suddenly implode...almost a strange calm...and maybe a realisation that shit will happen, but over a prolonged period. Although there has been some noteable protests.
There also appears to have been media acceptance and coverage from all sides that Trump's election promises won't happen (much like the Brexit promises of billions freed up for hospitals). It's weird because everyone just seems to accept that he won't do any of the more outrageous promises and that he never would.
Driving around, there's still loads of banners, flags and boards up...many saying 'Blacks for Trump' 'Women for Trump' and many of these are hand made signs, not produced by the campaign teams.
It's just strange here at the moment (from what I've witnessed)...and very much like the aftermath of Brexit in UK.
And, no doubt, the hope that it will happen to somebody else.
That's really bugging me at the moment. There seems to be a feeling that "my life will be improved as long as somebody else's gets worse". We've become a nation of Winston Smiths, desperately shouting "Do it to Julia!", in the hope that there's enough Julias that they'll never get round to doing it to us.
So, instead, I propose that we talk about solutions. Given that everything is as joined up as **** these days, where do we start? What, as individuals, do we do?
katyR - you've obviously got concerns. Where would you start in putting all this back together?
It's strange though...just in the last two days, there seems another shift. More news items of people speaking out and for the first time since I arrived, a local person mentioning the election result to me...and then asking if they could come back to the UK with me!!
The solution is obviously to eat the rich.. I mean, tax the rich. Put it towards infrastructure. Remove the loop holes that allow people to do it 'legally'
Stop giving big business tax breaks. I read somewhere that the money that apple/google/someone were let off with could have built 15 hospitals (do your own fact checking)
But it's easier to say that isn't it. The government aren't gonna hold referendums or votes on whether or not such businesses get taxed whatever percentages.
I heard that she cheated, but I didn't get any details.
We already tax the rich, but because of international banking, some get around the rules. The poor pay very little tax, but they dont appreciate it, and they think they should have it handed on a plate, loads of money.
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