Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Agent_W, Feb 21, 2016.
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38 Degrees have decided to do a bit of fact-hunting, too.
I was really struggling what to do. Traditionally I have always supported in. But with all that as being going on I ended up on the fence. Thank goodness Boris joined the exit brigade his speech today really solved it for me. Stay in. He had plenty of bluster and attempted comedy, but not backed up with anything but the Canadian solution, which proved to be total rubbish, and even Cameron was ready for it. I really think all the Brexit people are noisy but flimsy on the future if we are out, I thought it was going to be close but after the initial sparing if it continues like this the in's will get a decent majority. They accuse the ins of running a scare campaign, but that then that prevents them running their own scare campaign on immigration. They are just left knocking the in's campaign and when thats all you've got you've already lost.
I'm undecided. I've always been instinctively pro-EU and suspicious of the 'Little Englander' mentality which seems to underpin the movement to leave.
But living where I do, I can see the pitfalls of having unchecked immigration. Which feels a bit hypocritical in a way, given that I'm of mostly immigrant ancestry myself! But with no limits on it, I don't see how you can avoid having problems if large chunks of the population of one country all want to relocate to another one. It puts a huge burden on our health service and our education system, and I don't see how that is sustainable.
Who is really benefitting from all this immigration from Eastern Europe? Keeping unemployment levels high helps to wages down. Keeping demand for accomodation high keeps rents and property prices high. Seems like there are probably a lot of vested interests at play.
On the other hand.... EU legislation can protect us from the excesses of our own rotten government. And if we are doomed to perpetual tory misrule, then that is a real plus point for staying in.
It would be nice to be given more facts, and less spin.
Shithouses all, and that's just a selection of Tories.
They're not making it easy for us, are they?
Why have the press been making such a big deal of Ian Botham saying he's voting to leave Europe? It's not 1980.
What next...The Krankies opinion? Peter Duncan's? Debbie Magee saying 'Paul would have voted to leave'...etc?
Couldn't agree more Gary C! Botham might have been a good cricketer, but I don't give a shiny shit about his political opinions.
Maybe they should ask the President of the European Commission who he thinks will win the County Championship this year.
I'm inclining towards In.
The real problem about the campaigns so far is that the majority of the stuff being spouted by both sides is unsupported conjecture and guesswork. FAct checking is crucial for anyone who even vauguely give a monkey's.
It's also pretty funny watching the Tories rip in to each other. No matter which way the vote goes the make up of the government will have to alter massively after the referendum
I think we're getting to the sharp end now. The polls are weird. I've made my mind up. My guess is that a lot of people have.
There must be a few who are undecided, and some who aren't at this point going to bother.
I think it'll be the latter two categories that'll swing it. Is it too late to talk about this? Should we talk about this here?
If "In", what will happen next? If "Out", what will happen after that? Is there any point in imagining the future until we know? Does imagining the future influence how you might vote?
Once the nation has made its decision, the only thing preventing it from changing its mind is the belligerence of government and there are fairly good odds on a fairly close vote so there is probably a fairly close limit on how much belligerence they can give us.
So ask yourself this: which decision would be more easily reversed?
Will it be easier to get out if we decide to stay in, or will it be easier to get back in if we decide to come out?
I agree with all of that; immigration at the moment is 50/50 from inside and outside the EU, so we could limit half of it, even staying in the EU.
But we are currently in the EU and there has been minimal reduction in immigration from outside the UK - we need to take ownership of our borders and then we can decide who and how many can come in. Whilst immigration is an important and emotive issue I feel that the main point in the whole debate is that whatever the remain camp say, you cannot get away from the fact that whilst we are in the EU all major policy decisions that impact the UK are taken by a "committee" of people that the majority of UK residents have never heard of and have absolutely no chance of getting rid of if we do not agree with their decisions. We are merely the puppets in all of this. We are the 5th largest economy in the world and over the years have produced a number of extremely successful entrepreneurs - why does anyone think that we could not be successful outside the EU? I hope that the British people have the courage to vote to leave on Thursday so that we can start to seize the myriad opportunities that will be created as a result. If we do not vote this way, then we will have to resign ourselves to singing to someone else's tune in the future - even though we may be "sat at the table" as Cameron says, the UK views stand for nothing against the Germans and the French who have their own agendas for Europe.
We must wake up and smell the coffee.......
184,000 came to the UK from outside of the EU and Kate Heoy one of the leaders of "vote leave" want more, she said it on the Daily Politics, this week.
Boris Johnson of "vote leave" is on record as saying that he is one of the few politicians that is pro immigration, and as London Mayor he got Cameron to relax our rules on immigration.
When we joined the EU we were the second poorer nation, now the second richest in the EU, so we havnt done too bad?
"We must wake up and smell the coffee" - that is like something Nigel Farage would say, nice catch phrase, but you are short on positive facts on what it will be like outside of the EU.
My fears on all this are not fuelled by the Remain campaign, my fears are within the leavers. It is a strange alliance many extremely right wing politicians Gove, Johnson, Farage and the outers from the last Government and even Thatchers time. All of these would have had short shrift from the working class and ex-service personnel if they had been seeking election as a Government. They continue to bare faced lie even when they know they are, the £350m per week, Turkey joining EU etc. If this is not 'fear' campaigning what is? However if we leave these are the people taking over they would take over by default on a single issue referendum, is this democracy?
Other than their bluster they have no real plans, so one would expect them to return to their roots, privatisation, low wage economy, privileged education and healthcare etc.. this is probably not the 'Old England" that many of their supporters are looking for. They have crushed any rational debate and intelligent argument they shout every expert down. Everyone is entitled to express their opinion however they have shouted down 9 out of 10 economists, the Governor of the Bank Of England, the boss of the NHS, Independent Institute for Fiscal Studies, the Unions, 70% of large businesses, 47% of small businesses, Richard Branson, the Greens, the Lib Dems, the Presidents of Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the USA. They are all part of a Brussels inspired plot. In their corner sits, JCB, Dyson vacs, ISIS, Putin, Donald Trump, IRA and the Frankfurt Financial District . The French have suddenly realised pragmatically the opportunities Brexit will offer, they are already planning to relocate their Financial Services to La Defense in place of Canary Wharfe. I read in the paper yesterday if Gove needed an operation would he pass the scalpal to Farage from an expert?
Yes there is a sovereignty issue but in my mind it is the break up of our Union. NI, Scotland and even maybe Wales will vote to Remain. Scotland will I am sure call another referendum and leave. NI will then feel like an isolated nuisance and the drive to join Eire will be attractive. Wales will be dragged by the nose as always. The Guernseyfication of the UK is a phrase that is being used in International circles. I'm sure the fact that a War in Europe is unthinkable now has driven the old timers into one last 'thrashing of old Johnny Foreigner", to be honest I don't think many of the Europeans care. The fear and resentment will stay in England for years after all this.
Whatever happens it will not effect me that much, I'm not sure anybody over 50 should have the right to vote on such an issue. So I asked my son what I should do, remain it is then.
Can you list ten of those "myriad opportunities"?
I think whichever way the vote goes, politics in the UK will end up moving further to the right. I think it's already happened due to the way the campaign has been run.
I can't believe that people like Johnson and Gove and IDS have the sheer brass neck to talk about immigrants putting pressure on services and how we'd have loads more money to spend when they've been part of a Tory government that's cut spending for just about everything. We were told we had to watch our spending and live within our means. Now it turns out it was Polish builders all along! They must think we're stupid or something.
Anyway, two scenarios:
1) Leave wins. Cameron and Osborne are toast, and there's a coup by the Tory right. They move a further right to make sure that any disaffected Tories who are tempted by UKIP come back into the fold, and they also hope to bring in a few disaffected Labour voters by telling them immigrants are stealing their jobs. (Unemployment at the moment is lower than at the time of the last raft of accession to the EU, but let's not let the truth get in the way of a good story.) The Mail and the Express continue to run ludicrous stories about Turks/Romanians/Bulgarians/Martians/whichever nationality is flavour of the month to scare people with, and we start to see an increase in street violence against anyone who looks a bit different.
2) Remain wins. In order to prevent the complete disintegration of his party, Cameron makes some concessions to the malcontents in the name of unity; Tory party moves to the right. Farage gets more and more strident, so Cameron has to make even more concessions to prevent mass defections; Tory party moves to the right.
In either scenario, the Labour party thinks "What do we have to do to get more votes?" rather than "Hang on, what is it we actually stand for here?", and as a result, moves further to the right, because it worked for Tony Blair (who they don't realise everyone now hates). The Lib Dems spend another 20 years in the wilderness regretting getting into bed with the Tories in the first place, elect a succession of faceless leaders (could you spot Tim Farron in a crowd?), and get about 6 MPs every election.
Ever the optimist, me.
Still, let's not forget that the thing isn't legally binding, eh? Plenty could happen after all the votes are counted.
Trouble is, they don't, at least they don't appear to. As far as I can tell from discussion online with the remains of the Lib-Dem Party, they stand by their decision.
I think I am hoping for a slim win by Brexit, that the government refuse to implement.
I called that right then. Borpiss Johnson for PM - happy now?
Not as such, no.
We've kicked our own teeth in and we're now meant to be proud of the gaps as proof of our Britishness.
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