1. Welcome! Here you can discuss news, events and everything going on in Leeds. Looking to sign up or log in? Click here!

'Lostprophets' Ian Watkins on child sex offence charges'

Discussion in 'Music Chat' started by Kink, Dec 19, 2012.

  1. JasonWakefield

    JasonWakefield New Member

    Unfortunately I can't contribute much to this thread that hasn't already been said... but I want to post anyway, so deal with it ;)

    I have two main interests regarding the issue of paedophilia: 1) What makes a paedophile? and 2) How can we make sure as much pain is prevented as possible?

    Regarding the first question, I think paedophilia is essentially a sexual orientation. People cannot help their genetics, and they cannot help their upbringings, both of which will predetermine and/or affect our personalities somehow. I cannot say what specifically makes someone a paedophile in the same way that I don't really know what made me gay. But the lack of control any of us has over what innate desires we develop is why I do not think all paedophiles should be subject to automatic dehumanisation. Paedophilia is an alternative, innate sexuality, and on some level I empathise with that.

    Now coming onto the second question, it is clear that paedophilia, if acted on, is harmful. It is obviously very harmful to the recipient, and first and foremost we must protect people who cannot consent from ever being subject to any kind of abuse or trauma. However, paedophilia is also harmful to the paedophile - the inner turmoil one must go through when society deems them monsters for the mere existence of urges they didn’t ask for, whether they act on them or not! Paedophilia is also evidently harmful to the family, friends and acquaintances of those involved.

    How much pain is caused depends on plenty of contextual factors, some of which might make for some uncomfortable reading. These factors include 1) Who is the paedophile? 2) Are they actually acting on it? 3) Who are they acting on? 4) To what extent are they acting on it, i.e. is it kissing/mild rubbing/penetrative sex/etc? 5) What does the culture of the region or time deem of it? Etc.

    I do not have any solid answers to the two main questions I asked at the start, but I do know that the questions are absolutely vital. It must somehow be possible to prevent any children from being harmed AND to prevent a paedophile from self-destructing or to protect them from witch-hunts. We might have a glimpse of a humane solution if we allow ourselves to ask the questions, however there are plenty of people who would not entertain the thought, and won't let others entertain the thought either. Some people just want to see punishment. Personally I prefer preventative, practical measures, but then again, I don't feel like I have been sexually abused so my strength of feeling might seem somewhat meagre and cold in comparison to someone who definitely has been.

    There was a case recently when some figure in the media mentioned that as a child in boarding school a teacher had put their hands down his shorts for a moment and made him feel very uncomfortable. However he was worse affected upon learning that the teacher had, some years later, gassed himself to death. Some of the more reactionary sections of the media jumped on this as though he had attempted to legitimise ALL rape, and that he was an apologist for paedophilia. I deem this level of stupidity far more offensive than the initial point made. The point is this: context is everything, and that is always a valid point to make.

    Now, having said all that, in the context of Ian Watkins… As far as we can see from what the media is telling us, the man cared more for his own sexual gratification than for the lives he was ruining. In order to prevent any more harm from being inflicted, it is clear he must not be allowed around children or people who will offer their children to him. I don’t much care if he’s put in an asylum or a prison or a special village for paedophiles, but I do care that Watkins is somehow taught to manage his urges toward such horrific sadism. I also even think it’s worthwhile to study him, to find out what might have made him the way he is, so we might learn to prevent it from happening again. But most of all, let’s make sure his victims are taken care of, that we doctor their wounds as much as we can, and we don’t do anything else to further harm them. I’m looking at you, Peaches.
     
  2. Forum Ad Advertisement

  3. jfk

    jfk Member

    Jason, it's a difficult subject, but you could also apply the same reasoning to serial killers. In my angry young days, there were times when certain people pissed me off so much that I would fantasise about disposing of them. I'd go through several scenarios in my head, but something inside told me it was wrong and also against the law... so I fought the urge. Then, considering the possibility that I might be caught and locked up for many years, the fantasy soon dissipated. You'll be pleased to know that I never actually got around to killing anyone, I've lived long enough to learn that, in time, karma will eventually do its job.

    Children are vulnerable creatures, their ideas, opinions and even sexual preferences are not fully formed. It's very easy for an adult to take advantage of this, that's why paedophilia is considered to be wrong by most civilised societies. The results of some assaults can do lifelong damage to the victims, as evidenced by recent 'historic' cases. Most victims never forget. If you can fight the urge to kill someone, you can fight the urge to molest a child; it's called 'having a conscience'. Homosexuality is completely different, it's not illegal between consenting adults, so nothing to feel guilty about.
     
  4. JasonWakefield

    JasonWakefield New Member

    I do apply the same logic to serial killers. And terrorists, and suicide bombers, and tyrannical despots, and all kinds of depraved people. My position is quite simply: try to reduce the harm as much as possible, and also try to understand why they might do it in the first place.

    Not everybody has the same conscience because not everyone is born from the same parents, has the same teachers or has the same life. This isn't to diminish individual responsibility or to condone bad things, it's just about trying to understand. Heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, asexuality, zoophilia, paedophilia and all kinds of sexuality are alike in that no one can help how their innate urges develop over their lifetimes. The same applies to urges to murder people or eat broccoli. But it's a good moral rule of thumb that people take responsibility for their actions.

    I hate the word "karma". I hope that whatever made you angry was balanced out somehow, but unfortunately bad people get away with bad things all the time, and bad things happen to good people all the time. Karma reveals itself as an especially ugly idea when considering children who have been raped. What bad things have they done to deserve that? Will all of them have something so positive happen later in their lives to balance out that pain? What about the rapists like Savile who get away with it their whole lifetimes? I know you don't mean to question any of this and I'm sorry to be so brash, I just really dislike the word.
     
  5. jfk

    jfk Member

    Thought you might jump on that one. Not being a religious person, I don't think of karma in a superstitious way, but I do believe there's an energy running around the universe that balances things out; if there was another word for it, I would use it. It's a fact of life that throughout history most people who do 'bad' eventually get their comeuppance. Hitler, Hussein, Gadaffi, Sutcliffe, etc.. In my opinion, Jimmy Savile didn't get away with it. He wanted eternal glory and instead was vilified, which is small compensation for his victims, but a result (and also a lesson) nonetheless. The human spirit lives on in the legacy left behind.

    The main point of the post was that at certain times everyone will have had 'wrong' urges, but most people manage to control them. If an individual can't control harmful urges they should seek professional help.
     
  6. JasonWakefield

    JasonWakefield New Member

    I definitely agree with you on that.
     
  7. Seany

    Seany Active Member

    Favourite Bands:
    !!!, Can, Mars Volta
  8. MarcPollitt84

    MarcPollitt84 Well-Known Member

    Favourite Bands:
    Two Gallants
  9. Broady

    Broady Member

    Favourite Bands:
    Horrible
    Fucking hell, I couldn't get through that, awful stuff. Deserves everything he gets in jail.
     
  10. wallum

    wallum Member

    Favourite Bands:
    Kate Bush
    Yeah, I'd advise anyone not involved in the prosecution doesn't actually read that. The few pages I read were unspeakably awful and doesn't give any insight into why they did what they did, other than that they're evil cunts.
     
  11. MarcPollitt84

    MarcPollitt84 Well-Known Member

    Favourite Bands:
    Two Gallants
    Thought twice about posting it but, then again, we're all adults. The information is there only if you choose to click the link.

    It is extremely dark though and i feel quite disturbed having read less than half of it
     
  12. wallum

    wallum Member

    Favourite Bands:
    Kate Bush
    I wasn't having a go at you dude. I'm just pointing out that unless there is something later on that I haven't read, it's really of no benefit other than morbid curiosity. That stuff really happened to those kids.
     
  13. MarcPollitt84

    MarcPollitt84 Well-Known Member

    Favourite Bands:
    Two Gallants
    Oh i know, i was just adding to your sentiment.

    It is public information though (as far as i am aware) and in no way am i trying to trivialise it and apologise if my posting of a link seems flippant. Having recently become a dad myself the whole case and the depths of depravity surrounding it has actually really affected me.
     
  14. sheila

    sheila New Member

    He'll be eligible for parole after serving two thirds of his sentence. He shouldn't be let out ever again. Evil bastard.
     
  15. Tom Russia

    Tom Russia New Member

    I understand what you're saying but this kind of blind outrage doesn't help anyone. Not that it's your job to "solve" things.
     
  16. Staypuff

    Staypuff Active Member

    That's the law, I'm afraid. Nothing unique about his case. Shame he wasn't found insane, then they could have committed him indefinitely. Anyway, chance are he'll die in there, they'll be queuing up to take turns
     
  17. performingchimp

    performingchimp New Member

    I really worry that the demonisation of Watkins, Savile, the easy option to see them as evil, sociopathic weirdos, is partly responsible for making them evil and sociopathic in the first place.

    It's nothing like being a serial killer. A person who feels sexual urges towards children, they might not originally want to hurt anyone. A serial killer's urge is to cause harm, for whatever reason - the object is harming other people. A sexual urge isn't to cause harm.

    I think what people could do is, imagine your own sexual urges were wrong. Imagine you fancying women or men was wrong. Imagine you couldn't fulfill those urges, and not only that but fulfilling them would cause great pain and suffering to the other party, and not only that but even having the urges was the greatest taboo in your society, knowing that everyone around you would vilify and demonize you, would turn from friends into enemies.

    Imagine what that situation could do to your personality.

    I don't "blame society", I blame Watkins, he was an evil predator. But he wasn't born an evil predator, and until we as a society can honestly and openly examine how we think about pedophilia, we are not doing everything we can to stop our country being home to more Watkins' and Saviles.

    Police recorded over 23,000 sex offences against children aged under 18 years in England and Wales between April 2012 and March 2013. 23,000 in one year.
     
  18. bongobenny

    bongobenny Well-Known Member

    Why is this in music chat? It's about paedophilia...His child abuse has nothing to do with music.
     
  19. stevecreek

    stevecreek New Member

    Reading the transcript of that "mega lolz" conversation that he had from prison, it seems clear Watkins really didn't think he hurt anyone or caused any harm.

    I think that amongst the wave of demonisation of Watkins and others like him, there is a perception that he understands the impact of what he did to those children and their mothers, but still went ahead, and is remorseless, anyway.

    Given some of the things he has said, and also the fact that this is a man who for years and years engaged in violent, abusive sex with his fans for his own sexual pleasure, it seems to me that he really doesn't think he harmed anyone.

    I imagine that he is extremely confused, because he can't see how doing what he did with children so young as to be unaware of their own abuse is harmful, violent, depraved and abusive.

    This is hugely speculative, obviously, but it is helping me to try and understand it. The idea that people are just violent and evil and cruel and remorseless seems much less easy to bear, and also less feasible, than the idea that they don't fully understand the harm they are causing.
     
  20. performingchimp

    performingchimp New Member

    I understand your point, but that's not what I was implying or suggesting. Obviously what he did caused harm and if he thought otherwise he was deluded and maybe even more dangerous. I haven't read the details of the case, so apologies if I seem to be alluding to it. I'm not.

    I was saying that initially someone who is a paedophile might never want to abuse anyone, they might be good people. I believe we all need to change our perception, so that we recognise that a paedophile who has never acted on their urges is not a bad person, and not a deviant or a criminal or a monster. And a paedophile who comes forward for help/restraint/whatever having never committed any act of abuse is worthy of great praise and respect.

    I don't know if that is possible, but I think it might need to happen for abuse and child pornography to be curtailed.

    Trying to stop abuse doesn't seem to work, I would guess because sexual urges will tend to be expressed one way or another, they are powerful things.

    And currently it is at epidemic proportions in our society. Chances are you know someone who was abused as a child, and you might well know an abuser too.
     
  21. sheila

    sheila New Member

    It's not blind outrage, it's gut reaction, furious gut reaction based on not just this case but things in my life too. If someone wants to tell me the right response though please feel free.
     

Share This Page