Discussion in 'Non-Music Chat' started by trev, Oct 17, 2014.
Yeah **** off Darren.
C'mon gais, you forever disappoint me.
I wonder why she brought up the part about her being very drunk. Could this be a slight suggestion that the victim was partly to blame?
Not cool, Judy.
Otherwise, yeah I don't see a problem with him applying for a job as a footballer. Perhaps though, potentially being someone in the public eye, he should be prepared to make some kind of statement about his rehabilitation and that justice was served? If he's come out of prison still thinking there was nothing wrong with what he did then we have an issue.
It's a very difficult point to be fair. On one hand, if you say 'don't get so drunk you can't remember where you are, don't end up on your own and don't end up going off with people you've known for two seconds without telling anyone' that just seems like sensible advice. If someone decides to ignore all this, and something terrible happens, does any fault lie with them? On the other of course, we all accept someone should have the right to do anything they like, including getting pissed up, getting into cars with strangers, going back to hotel rooms and they still absolutely have the right to say no.
As for the second point, I presume him repeatedly protesting his innocence, plans for further appeal and so on suggests it may be a while before he accepts he's a rapist and needs rehab.
Which is all well and good, but in reality, genuine advice offered out to people about how to stay safe does tend to deal with the realities of the world, the fact that there are people out there who will take advantage, and how to avoid something bad happening to you.
But once you go down the path of "meh, there's always gonna be rapists - so here's how to avoid them", you shift the focus, even with the best intentions, onto what women should be doing, how they should be altering THEIR behaviour, in order to not get raped. It's obviously not the same as saying "you brought this on yourself" but it does start off that path and has that philosophy at the core of it.
I disagree it has that philosophy at the core of it. This isn't a slippery slope argument and I cannot envisage a reasoned argument which begins with 'don't walk through the big dark park full of dodgy people, drunk, in the middle of the night, alone' and concludes with 'you deserved to get raped.' That conclusion, in my mind at least, never exists because nobody 'deserves' to have anything like that happen to them.
Being ignorant or willfully stupid isn't a crime, but removing reality from the debate is dangerous. 'Go wherever you like, wander around drunk and alone, leave your doors unlocked, don't bother sticking those valuables in the boot, after all, want to reduce theft? Stop stealing things!'
When I started at uni there were plenty of signs up and around the place about some recent rapes/assaults which had been carried out by unlicensed taxi drivers. The (to my mind eminently sensible) advice was 'book a taxi through a reputable company, always share a taxi if you can, if you're not sure, don't get in, don't wander off from your friends during the night without telling them where you are going' and so on. I really don't see anything wrong, at all, with this, despite the fact it may make people slightly alter their behavior for the sake of safety.
That's fair enough mate, wheareas I do see something seriously wrong with it. Clearly we're both on the same side though, we just see different routes to the same conclusion.
I'll say again as well, I feel that whoever scheduled/scripted this edition of Loose Women has a lot more to answer for than Finnigan.
But what is 'seriously wrong' with it? In an ideal world, you wouldn't have to worry about stumbling into any taxi when you're blind drunk, as every taxi driver would be a helpful cheery chap who'll drop you off at your door like a bottle of milk, taking his exact fare from your purse and making sure you can get your keys in the lock. This, we would all agree, is not the world we live in, so why not try and make it very clear that the blame for any rape lies with the person committing it, and target those who do look to take advantage of pissed up vulnerable teenagers let loose in a brand new town, without ignoring their existence and advising people how to stay safe?
This perfect world scenario is idealistic, and possibly dangerous.
Well what's seriously wrong with it is that you're saying "girls, here's how YOU should alter your behaviour to avoid getting raped. If you don't do these things...well..."
That's pretty clear to me.
That applies to all people over a whole host of crimes you could become victim to surely? I presume you think any advice about keeping your windows and doors locked when you're out is 'seriously wrong' as well? Or telling people they should lock valuables in the boot of a parked car rather than leave them on the back seat?
It doesn't have to be either or. You can target the people who carry out these crimes whilst also giving people some basic advice about how to keep themselves and their property safe.
Well yeah, I guess if you think that rape prevention should be treated with the same approach as car crime and burglary prevention?
Because of the horrific rape culture which somehow still exists in 2014, because of the shambolic conviction rates/attitudes displayed by people as high up as Justice Minister (a former one basically said the same as Judy on R4) - I don't. I think it should be treated differently and that extra efforts should be made to place the focus solely on the rapist.
While I find the advice about car crime still places the emphasis on the victim, I don't think the roots of someone being okay with taking someone else's belongings have the same far-reaching implications as the roots of the belief that raping someone is okay.
It's just a big "but" after saying clearly that rape is wrong and totally the fault of the rapist.
"It wasn't your fault, Mrs X, BUT NEXT TIME..."
What about muggings then? Or assaults? There is loads of advice given out about how to avoid these, a lot of which is incredibly similar to advice about rape, namely don't go off, alone, hammered, through dark, lonely places. Nobody deserves to be beaten up and have their money and phone stolen, but we don't say to people 'hey, don't worry about getting mugged. We've advised all muggers to stop!'
What are you suggesting in a practical sense here? That we don't advise people to take care when they've had a lot to drink? Surely that is always going to happen, regardless of rape conviction percentages. If ninety percent of reported rapes resulted in conviction we should still be advising people how to take care of themselves.
In a practical sense I'm suggesting people who give a **** to take more responsibility for addressing rape culture where they see it, for the police to start dealing with rape properly and for actions that have a cultural impact, such as ensuring we never, ever say to the victim "well, you DID get drunk and walked off alone through dark places...".
I really, REALLY don't think there are many people who presume they're just as safe in a dark alley by themselves at 3am as they are walking down a main road, sober, with a group of friends. When we then turn round to the next person and go, "hey, look at her over there...she got raped/mugged because she walked down an alley drunk, do you want to be like her?", we're cutting the rapist/mugger out of the equation, as well as assuming stupidity on behalf of the victim.
Longer sentences don't work as deterrents, plenty of studies to show that. The only thing to do is to cut the roots of the culture that creates rape - misogyny represented by "innocuous" things like Page 3 as well as lads mags & advertising, sexism in terms of opportunites/pay and victim blaming. Or you can put up some posters saying "don't go to rapisttown if you don't wanna get raped, idiot".
But we're agreeing on the point of people targeting those who commit rapes and so on. Neither of us thinks anyone who gets raped 'deserved it.'
We disagree on the idea that any practical advice on how to protect yourself, at its core, has the philosophy of 'you were asking for it' at it's heart. If it's 'seriously wrong' that the potential victim of a rape should have to alter their behavior in any way, then the same applies for a potential victim of a theft, a mugging, or even a murder.
I think the same does apply. I would highlight the murder one though - how many "how to not get murdered on a night out" advice posters/adverts/booklets have you seen? None?
Because there is absolutely no way that anyone would say about a murder victim "well, they WERE wearing THOSE clothes...". Why not?
It's all just general safety tips to be fair. I see no issue with some real world advice about places to avoid/you might want to take the slightly longer walk/always book a licensed cab whilst we carry on trying to make society a safer, better place whilst at the same time acknowledging that it isn't.
I dunno man, I'm not sure I've seen many "general" safety things. They do seem to be targetted at car crime/mugging/buying drugs and how not to get raped. Never seen a "here's how to avoid being killed" one. I think rape should have that same treatment, is all.
Would the argument work if it was a man? If a guy got raped (by another man or whatever) would anyone seriously use the phrase, "..but he WAS very drunk though." I think not.
There are risks in many things in life. If I'm forced to park my car on a dimly lit street in a dodgy area and it got broken into, I think people might acknowledge that it was a car crime hotspot, but no one would actually say "well you shouldn't have parked on that street" where I have every right to park. Taking that risk doesn't mean I was stupid or deserved it, and getting drunk on a night out shouldn't mean you "deserved" it just because you are a woman.
I guess what I'm saying is this: Precautions CAN be taken, but they shouldn't HAVE to be and your right not take them shouldn't be used against you to portion out some of the blame. The only real argument is to stop people being rapists otherwise there isn't any real end to that line of argument. Otherwise, when would a girl ever even be able to talk to man? Would wearing a burkha and only going out in public with a member of your family reduce rape? Maybe, but **** that.
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