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Ferguson Pt II

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Seany, Nov 25, 2014.

  1. Seany

    Seany Active Member

    Favourite Bands:
    !!!, Can, Mars Volta
    It's maddening isn't it?

    No, not the fact that the cop didn't get indicted, but the fact that through due process a choice has been made that people can't accept.

    And whilst ok, the police maybe and probably do look after their own, people can't just go ballistic over the fact they lost a decision. Most people, myself included don't have any idea of the evidence, or anything remotely looking like a fact in this mess.

    However what i do know is fact; a man has lost his life, another man will find it difficult to have a life.
    And that the looters et all are criminals of the lowest order and have nothing to do with Mr Brown, or the actual topics at stake. But if you look deeper and wonder why this behavior comes about, you only have to look to the very top of society. Most of the looters are just poor people getting 'caught' trying to do what the people in power are doing that 'don't get caught'.

    The media coverage last night was ghoulish and grotesque, made like some mash up of Anchorman, Nightcrawler and a nightmare from the depths of a David Lynch/Chris Morris collaboration, a 'new' format of reality 'REALITY' television so much so i could almost smell the tear gas through my tv set. All the audience needed was a 'death' on air.

    To me this has become so warped, that people are just missing key points from both angles on how to move society forward in all of this.

    The whole thing can be addressed as: race vs race, police vs civilians, poor vs rich, just vs unjust and also a mixture of all of these things. No one comes out of this smelling of roses, not even you or I who may or may not have our own opinions and agendas behind who, or what happened on that fateful night.

    A lose/lose situation no matter how you chose to look at it.
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  3. Pat Badger

    Pat Badger New Member

  4. Not really. Mark Duggan was murdered by a lying policeman. Demonstrably lying. And then backed up my the media (easy example: the cropping of him looking 'gangster' was actually a larger picture from his fucking daughters funeral, no wonder he looked pissed off) And the verdict at the inquest was laughable.

    Michael Brown was much more ambiguous.
  5. I mean - on the first night the police announced he'd shot a policeman!!! The policeman was hit by one of his own colleagues as they shot an unarmed man.

    Oh yeah, and John Charles De Menezes jumped the barrier and was wearing a padded jacket.

    And Ian Tomlinson was rioting.

    And Liverpool fans robbed the corpses at Hillsborough.
  6. AgentW

    AgentW Member

    I know circumstances are different, but in the Aurora cinema shooting, someone who was known to be heavily armed was taken into custody alive after killing twelve and injuring dozens. It's a bit hard to reconcile with what seems to be the heavy-handed treatment of Michael Brown, and indeed a 12-year-old kid being shot dead yesterday.

    Trayvon Martin's killer wasn't originally going to stand trial, and when he did he was acquitted. Yesterday, this: http://www.buzzfeed.com/mikehayes/flori ... 0-years-in

    I'm no expert on the law, but some things there look wildly inconsistent. I can certainly understand the anger.
  7. AgentW

    AgentW Member

    I've been thinking about this and whether I agree with it or not, and whether I can understand why people riot.

    Policing in the USA and the UK (and a lot of other countries) is by consent: it's kinda "I will behave within the law if you, the law enforcers, do the same".

    When that balance gets upset, the consent is withdrawn. "OK, you're not gonna uphold your end of the bargain, so we're not either". In truth, all of the societies that rely on policing by consent are just one incident away from that consent being withdrawn. It really is that tenuous. That "critical mass", if you like, is never actually that far away. If you get people thinking "The cops can shoot me and get away with it" (because very often, they do - look at deaths in police custody versus successful prosecutions against cops, for example), that feeds into a "**** this" mentality. If you can get shot for **** all, it changes your perspective.

    A couple of Christmases ago, my brother and I were joking about a kid we were at school with. For a laugh, we Googled him. It turned out he was sat opposite de Menezes on the tube when he was shot. His evidence and that of his girlfriend at the inquest directly contradicted the evidence of a police firearms officer. No evidence from the public was heard in the Metropolitan Police health and safety trial over the shooting. It was only open to evidence from cops. Fair system?

    When things are that fucked, how do you protest against it? When you know they can kill and get away with it, how do you get justice? Where's left to go? What do you do? Do you withdraw your consent or do you shut your mouth and pretend?

    This stuff's very, very complicated. Making sense of it is hard. With respect, "criminals of the lowest order" is too easy in my opinion. I'm talking about the people who actually live in Ferguson and are "involved" - people who have metaphorically parachuted in for a ruck (if they exist, because I'm taking little on trust from official sources, and you can perhaps understand why) - are a different story, probably.
  8. Al2001

    Al2001 Member

    ^^This is a good post^^

    Assuming you're talking about the cop here, **** him. He shot an unarmed young man in broad daylight. The people who should be putting the evidence together and disciplining him instead, as ever, close ranks and spread misinformation and malicious rumours about his victim. Maybe the cop has to look over his shoulder the rest of his life? So fucking what? It's the very least he deserves, he should have thought about that before pulling the trigger.

    And why are the police so trigger-happy when it comes to young black men and boys? Because they know they'll get away scot-free, like this one did, and like the thousands before Michael Brown and the several since undoubtedly will.
  9. Seany

    Seany Active Member

    Favourite Bands:
    !!!, Can, Mars Volta
    Indeed, it is an excellent post as always from Mr Agent, top stuff!

    But, this is why personally for me it all falls back on the gun problem in the USA.

    The police here, HAVE to assume everyone is 'packing' because, well for the most case a lot of people are.

    ANY sudden movement and you can be shot, even when pulled over for a simple case of jaywalking, or a back light out. It really must be terrifying to be a cop here, no doubt about it.

    And for me, personally, much more training needs to be done for police to not kill through deadly force.

    But of course, Agent, you're right in the thinking there does need to be that consent of everything in balance for stuff to work.

    And 'the lowest order' bit was an exaggeration of a point. I just was meaning people who hijack situations for their desire to do wrong, much like religious fundamentalists etc.

    With all this said i am very wary of some people claiming racial motives out of this, thus 'making' it more race orientated.
    Again, personally for me, do i think the cop shot the guy BECAUSE he was black? no, (and maybe i am wrong). But the young kid put himself in a risky position when he decided to shoplift/rob a store.

    Did the cop use excessive force for the situation? In hindsight, undoubtedly! But in a split second a choice had to be made, whether it was the right one, or the wrong one i guess only two people truly know.
  10. Seany

    Seany Active Member

    Favourite Bands:
    !!!, Can, Mars Volta
    Considering that you thought Agent's post was very good, it would have been interesting to have carried on that level of quality in the conversation.

    Im by no means on the cops side, as as mentioned in my original post, everyone is guilty of having an opinion or an agenda here.

    I assume you were not there at the shooting, or did not have the evidence the grand jury were presented with, therefor what you might claim is possibly more invalid than an invalid and unjust decision by a grand jury.

    Im not saying that the cops don't close rank, and the other facts you mention, I'm sure they do, but i am also very aware that lot's of the public like conspiracies and witch hunts just as much. and THAT is what i am more afraid of, can you imagine if this decision is actually true?! That it is 100% what happened? ( i mean i actually can't, and i know a lot of others can't. But what if it actually was what happened?)

    This goes for anyone in the states, not just due to color, anyone and everyone can be carrying a gun, legally first of all, illegally second of all.

    Put it this way, I pissed someone off the other night at football practice telling them they needed to put their shin pads on to be able to play, the guy in question went nuts at me, and stormed off to his car, and at that point i did actually realize if he wanted to, he could be going to pick up a gun. THAT, is what is like here i am sad to say.

    *ps, the guy in question was white, and I'm mixed race, I'm certain if he had wanted to shoot me it wouldn't have been because i was black, more like id just pissed him off.

    Hope this helps a mini bit, it is all pretty complex, and no way near as easy as you described to fathom.
  11. AgentW

    AgentW Member

    Perhaps one way to frame that question is whether this sort of stuff happens more to black people than it does to white people, and to look at whether people are charged or not.

    There's a link here that's pretty interesting: http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politi ... ly-war-its

    If black people are being shot on a regular basis and nothing is happening to the people who shoot them, where's that headed?
  12. Darren Major

    Darren Major New Member

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    here we go again, defending the utter dregs of society. why are you people obsessed with the worst society has to offer? is it a comrade thing?

    mike brown was shot for attacking a police offer who had tracked him down for robbing a store. his ultimate downfall was choosing to behave, (CHOOSING - important word that) in front of the officer the same way he was caught behaving in front of the defenseless store owner, aggressively - attempting to gain possession of his firearm according to both the officer and witnesses. in what way has a miscarriage of justice occurred? he got exactly what he deserved. i wish more people like him were shot and killed, duggan mk ll. what are cops supposed to do? allow people to get away with robberies and assault?
  13. Darren Major

    Darren Major New Member

    Favourite Bands:
    deacon blue
    "If black people are being shot on a regular basis and nothing is happening to the people who shoot them, where's that headed?"

    buddy, 93% of black crime is black on black crime. 93%!!!!
    so to paraphrase your question, if black people are getting shot, robbed, raped on a regular basis, CLEARLY whites are the least of their worries. their fellow racial brothers/sisters bare the brunt of their concern. with that said, and in relation to your question, where is the anger directed towards blacks who kill and hold down other blacks? where is the outright condemnation - and, as you state yourself, where is that headed??
  14. Seany

    Seany Active Member

    Favourite Bands:
    !!!, Can, Mars Volta

    If you actually read, and listened, and took in what people are saying, i think you'll notice that no one is defending the utter dregs of society. But like the people you try to castrate, take from the argument what you will, and miss the point spectacularly!

  15. Seany

    Seany Active Member

    Favourite Bands:
    !!!, Can, Mars Volta
    Even though African-Americans use or sell drugs about the same rate as whites, they are 2.8 to 5.5 times more likely to be arrested for drugs than whites. Black offenders also receive longer sentences compared to whites. Most offenders are in prison for nonviolent drug offenses.

    But surely if no one does drugs, you don't get busted? For any amount of time.

    Ok the system is skewed when you do get busted, but if you don't do dumb things you won't go into a skewed system.
  16. Darren Major

    Darren Major New Member

    Favourite Bands:
    deacon blue
    race is not the point at issue?! lol. do you realise how retarded and ignorant you look? go tell that to the media who have exploited the racial aspect as the prime cause for concern, go tell that to the rioters and looters who have sprayed 'honky' on police cars and filled the discourse with a RACE fueled narrative, and go tell that to al sharpton and his fellow black power comrades. seriously, i can't stop laughing.

    and if stats prove that blacks killing blacks is a faaaar bigger issue than whites killing blacks, my point ultimately stands to reason. where is the condemnation? my point is backed up by facts, not some jacobin lefist take on the facts. do you honestly think mike brown was a fat humble kid who just happened to demonstrate a bizarre, never seen before nastier side to him in front of a store owner and his cctv? describing this young man as innoncent, refusing to accept testimonies from witnesses, some of whom are black by the way, and destroying your own area of commerce and community - is the archetypal sign of scummy, immature maggots.

    but....don't tell me, your appreciation of northern soul and jimi hendrix causes you to have an adverse effect on your understanding of logic, facts and reason whenever minorities are concerned.
  17. Darren Major

    Darren Major New Member

    Favourite Bands:
    deacon blue
    "Even though African-Americans use or sell drugs about the same rate as whites"

    HAHAHAHAH. american crime stats paint a a far - and forgive the pun, darker picture i'm afraid. but facts are not the point here, right?

    young blacks are statistically more involved in drug dealing than whites throughout the US. particularly in regards to street narcotics and distribution. but i'm sure you'll find a way to pin this on those white oppressors? many of the aforementioned narcotics associates end up killing their own, resulting in a proliferation of black homicide AND drug conviction. your habit of injecting emotionally fueled, baseless presumptions as a basis for your arguments is unfortunate, to say the least.
  18. Mr Gary C

    Mr Gary C Well-Known Member

    Speaking of Northern Soul. Have you heard Ordinary Joe by Terry Callier? It's a ****ing Northern Soul classic!
  19. Seany

    Seany Active Member

    Favourite Bands:
    !!!, Can, Mars Volta
    It's certainly not the point at issue. As i said before it can be if you want it to be.

    But to ask do i realize how retarded and ignorant i look, when you even said that the kid got shot for being a robber, and NOT because he was black, means you're pretty dumb for not even listening to your own argument . You certainly are a special king of non intelligent person. But you made me laugh as well, so i guess we're square.
  20. Mr Gary C

    Mr Gary C Well-Known Member

    Hang on a minute. They're causing trouble about someone being shot?

    I thought it was all to do with Darren Major having a tiny dick?
  21. Seany

    Seany Active Member

    Favourite Bands:
    !!!, Can, Mars Volta
    Sorry this is for you, so you can see i didn't make the last bit up:

    he whole thing can be addressed as: race vs race, police vs civilians, poor vs rich, just vs unjust and also a mixture of all of these things. No one comes out of this smelling of roses, not even you or I who may or may not have our own opinions and agendas behind who, or what happened on that fateful night.

    From my original post.

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