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Cultural and historical vandalism

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Fastfreddy, Jun 23, 2015.

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  1. Fastfreddy

    Fastfreddy Well-Known Member

    Listening to the news in recent months and the on going discussion around Muslims leaving the country to fight for or support ISIS in Syria I find statements that are continually put forward that ISIS Is not Islam astounding. It may not be the Islam that some Muslims want but it is the Islam that appeals to millions of Muslims around the world.

    The destruction of historical sites in the middle east including world heritage sites such as Palmyra by these unintelligent philistines surely should require a more robust world wide response.

    What can be done, what should be done. I don't recognise the world any more and I don't recognise my world as one in which I feel content and safe.

    Is there an answer(s)
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2015
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  3. MrTempleDene

    MrTempleDene Just Me Staff Member

    I have to agree I am horrified about the destruction of so many antiquities, and the horrific way IS executes people.

    But as to your first question, I'd say IS is Islam only in the same way that the IRA are Catholic, or that many other "religious" terrorists wrap themselves in mangled forms of their religion to justify their cause.
     
  4. SimpleAccessories

    SimpleAccessories New Member

    This world doesn't make sense anymore, just live your life because trying to always figure out why certain things happen will do nothing but reduce your life expectancy and increase your stress levels.
     
  5. JohnnoLS8

    JohnnoLS8 Member

    IS are murderous fanatics. They claim to be Muslims, but it's clear that the overwhelming majority of Muslims hold them in utter contempt. It's rather like loony Christian sects, who the majority of Christians have nothing in common with.

    Unfortunately, IS seems to be doing rather a good job of persuading gullible young people to go and join them, and in the meantime they are destroying priceless antiquities and destroying thousands of peoples lives.

    Personally, I think this is one issue where I'd be more than happy to see an international 'peacekeeping' force despatched to wipe out these evil scum. I know that the idea of 'boots on the ground' has become an unfashionable one lately, but surely it's as justified here than anywhere?
     
  6. Hairyloon

    Hairyloon Active Member

    A bit like the Holy Crusades during the Middle Ages. I think it is a phase that religions go through...
     
  7. Fastfreddy

    Fastfreddy Well-Known Member

    I think therein lies the problem Hairy. The last crusade to my knowledge was in the mid 14th centuary and directed against Chrisitian schisms in Provence and the Languedoc such as the Cathars and the smaller break away faiths in the Luberon. The west has had over 600 years to develop / modernise its thinking to come to terms with the right position of religion in society and the interplay with secular government and the rule of law.

    Sadly the so called Muslim fundamentalists appear to be stuck in a 12 centuary interpretation of Islam. Backword, regressive, oppressive and pure evil in the modern context. The terrible thing is that non of us know when the next UK or European based attrocity will happen, Charlie Hebdo will not be the last and in all probability the attacks will become bolder and more extreme. I fear that this will be the reality if our government continues to do nothing to address the real issues in what passes for 2015 Britain and the unrecognisable state of some of our cities.

    Mr TD I always agree with what you say but on this occassion I must object slightly to the analogy with the IRA. In 1916 and the run up to the uprising, the civil war and the eventual establishment of the free state, the IRA were fighting for a free independant Ireland against the British oppressor. While religion was inevitably part of the issue given that Britain had been trying for centuaries to repress Irish catholism the main driver was the establishement of an Irish republic not religion.

    In the modern sense in Ulster the IRA was fighting once again for Irish unification but the main driver here was the lack of protection and equality afforded by the British state to the Catholic minority in the face of increasing levels of sectarian violence perpetrated by the protestant "Billy Boy" unionists against that minority. While religion is an obvious component it is far from the main driver and the IRA or the government in Eire have never to my knowledge wanted to establish a Catholic state run along the lines of the inquisition with the aim of killing / murdering the unbeliever and destroying all evidence of other faiths.

    In short I dont think there is any comparison to be drawn in any way with ISIS and its followers and the IRA.

    Can we continue with this discussion. Please all pitch in without fear of being called a racisit. This is inteligent discussion not right wing jingoism
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2015
  8. Fastfreddy

    Fastfreddy Well-Known Member

    More Islamic hate crimes in Tunisia and a beheading in France. America by and large caused the instability that the world finds itself in right now and O'Bama thinks that the main issue requiring his most urgent attention is to authorise the despatch of a brigade of tanks to Eastern Europre to frighten the Russians. How misguided. Why they feel the need to raise tension in yet another part of the world when there is still much to finnish in the previous debacles that they started.
     
  9. MrTempleDene

    MrTempleDene Just Me Staff Member

    Up until fairly recently, Islam was moderate and very enlightened, you just have to look at pictures of Iran from the 70's to see that.

    Then a small sect calling Wahabism started to take over, and it drove a lot of Muslims back into more repressive ideas

    What worries me is, we see similar sects arising amongst Christians in the US, and to a lesser degree over here. I can't imagine they will really get a foothold and power, but it would be a disaster if they did.

    The similarities are horrible, Doctors being gunned down for providing abortions, and the disgusting protests by the Westboro Baptist Church
     
  10. Fastfreddy

    Fastfreddy Well-Known Member

    Spot on Mr TD.

    The spread of Islam across the world and the the rise of fundamentalism in the last 20 or so years is truely frightening.

    I cant see armies of Christian warriors surging to the holy land to fight, and protect pilgrims quite in the same manner that ISIS appear be recruiting towards the spread of their brand of hate and murderous violence but maybe this will naturally follow if the major powers continue to do very little to counter what is occuring.

    I remember the Lebanon conflict in the late 60s and 70s was essentially muslim pitted against Christian and the result was the almost complete destruction of a beautiful once forward thinking country. The US were invovled in that one as well on the periphery. These days the Palestinian terrorists are agitating in and around Lebanon causing more mayhem.

    Another very worrying fact about the ISIS surge into Syria is that should they prevail they will possible get their hands on a large stock pile of chemical weapons and possibly nuclear weapons or at least fisionable material. It was never proved one way of the other what Syria managed to produce at the Nuclear instalation the Isrealis destroyed and other secret instalations that may have existed.
     
  11. Hairyloon

    Hairyloon Active Member

    Perhaps we should be looking at why, and for that I suggest we look at what they are fighting against rather than what they are fighting for...
     
  12. LS resident

    LS resident Member

    Tackling this fundamentalism, I don't think anyone knows what the answer is. It seems to be something that the modern world hasn't seen before, like a modern phenomenon, and is facilitated and spread by the world wide internet.

    The root cause isn't a state or a dictatorship or even any group, and the objective isn't anything specific - it seems to be purely the destruction of everyone (and everything) who is not them.

    The cause is much more elusive - the ideology is almost like a widespread internet virus that affects humans - one that is running round and testing the minds of people worldwide, it is rejected by the majority, but for some reason there is a weakness in certain individual's minds where it secretly takes root and festors and grows often without any warning signs until they are prepared to support or carry out an act of unspeakable evil against humanity.

    How do you tackle that?
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2015
  13. Fastfreddy

    Fastfreddy Well-Known Member

    I dont know LS I really dont.

    What do you think ISIS are fighting against Hairy. They say they want to establish an Fundamentalist Islamic caliphate across the middle east that encompasses, Syria, Iraq etc but I doubt that it will stop there. On the face if they are fighting to establish that by filling the power vacumn left by the overthrow of Hussain, Gadaffi and the weakening powebase of Assad.

    In a wider sense you do have to think about the stated aim of a world wide spread of fundamentalist islam and the defeat of Christian and secular values. The west seems to be idle while this takes root. The last time ideology was openly discussed that talked about world wide spread of an idea that country was shunned, isolated and demonised - and still is - I talk of course about Russian communism.

    Speaking dispationately and seriously what is the biggest threat to world peace and security, is it Vladimir Putim and the Red Army or is it ISIS and the cells of fundamemtalist muslims in every corner of the globe. If ISIS does find Chemical weapons in Syria or worse nuclear technology then god help us all.
     
  14. Hairyloon

    Hairyloon Active Member

    We should at least consider the possibility that they are fighting against those who seek to destroy the world through the Love of Money.
     
  15. Fastfreddy

    Fastfreddy Well-Known Member

    I do agree that this is often cited when they talk about the "great Satan" America. But I think this is largely a propoganda call to rally more troops to the cause. The mantra we are poor because they are rich, and they are deliberately keeping us poor. The truth of course is somewhere in the argument but it always ignores the fact that the reason why much of middle east is poor is simply because of the endemic corruption that exiasts and the "oil billions" being accumulated by a few very wealthy people and families. If the oil wealth had been used correctly the middle East could and should have been a wonderful part of the world with good infrastructure across the region, free health care, industry and technology etc etc.

    Maybe the west need to be better at the propoganda game. Some western countries were always very accomplished at it in the past but seem to have fallen behind in the technological age of the world wide web.
     
  16. Hairyloon

    Hairyloon Active Member

    No, "propaganda" suggests that it is not true.
     
  17. Fastfreddy

    Fastfreddy Well-Known Member

    I think there is much critism that can be correctly thrown at the American administration with out the need to over emphasise that which is merely conveniant for the impressionable recruit to extremism. If they are looking for reasons to explain poverty and deprevation in the region they need to look a lot closer to home and perhaps at the leadership within ISIS itself. I imagine those guys are not living like Mohammed in the wilderness.

    I do think we need to be much better at the propoganda game and turn it to our advantage, either that or the much more extreme solution of a complete internet, phone and television blackout across Syria and Iraq of say 6 months to allow European forces with the Americans if neccessary to do what has to be done to deal with ISIS without long lense paparazzi cameras and you tube video clips arising every minute of the day on every network across the world.

    There are times when I dont think we need to know what is happening, just that it is.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2015
  18. jar ed

    jar ed Member

    There wont be any US Forces, other then the few thousand already there as advisors to the Iraqi army going to that part of the world anytime soon. There is a Presidential election coming up in November 2016 and any talk of once more sending 150,000 boots on the ground is absolutely out. The American public are dead set against the idea also,

    What's needed on our part is effective propaganda to counteract that put out by IS which has so far been very successful in managing to recruit the simple minded to go fight for IS. Automatic loss of citizenship and without the right to return would also be a good idea. They would be made aware that once they joined IS they will be stuck there until they either die in combat or die of old age

    Our so called ally Saudi Arabia has financed the IS to the tune of millions of dollars, a well known fact that seldom seems to be mentioned by our politicians.

    Of course if it gets down to the blame game for the whole mess the blame needs to be placed squarely on George Bush and Tony Blair along with Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. The post Saddam occupation and administration of Iraq was a case of colossal mismanagement from the beginning. Paul Bremer who was appointed to oversee the occupation committed a very serious blunder in dismantling the whole of the Iraqi army instead of just replacing the Baathist officers loyal to Saddam.
    The job of rebuilding Iraq into some sort of democracy was only half done when the last of the coalition forces were pulled out. The new Prime Minister of Iraq wasn't capable of doing the job and played right into the hands of Iran by favoring Shi'ites over Sunnis which inevitably dashed any hopes of a government representing all Iraqis

    So if you want to know how ISIS originated look no further than a few thousand disenfranchised Sunnis and former leaders of Saddam's military who are well trained in the art of warfare.

    The whole thing is a gigantic cock up partly of our own making
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2015
  19. Fastfreddy

    Fastfreddy Well-Known Member

    Yes I agree with much of that. A power vacumn was created and there was no sensible plan to fill it. One powerful man or family is removed and another one eventually takes charge. Its the way of things in that part of the world and our idea of democracy really does not fit and it never will.

    The Saudis are in a very difficult situation and have been duplicitous for years. They have a vested interest in maintaining a very privalged position and are skilled at playing one side against the other while appearing to support both sides and all interests. The offerof lucrative weapons and technology contracts usually keeps the west in line and a few words in the right ear and a little bit of clandestine funding and arms shipments keep ISIS and the like thinking that the Saudis support the muslim brotherhood against the infidel. They play a very dangerous game but one that is entirely understandable. Will it come crashing down I think it probably will. Its only a matter of time.

    Today the UK government are talking about joining the bombing of strategic targets in Syria. I was against this but now I think the landscape has shifted so much in recent months that it is now encumbent on all of the western powers and others that want to make a positive statement against extremism to join the fight against the ISIS aggressors. But there will be an escalation. Strategic bombing wont win this conflict without ground troops being fully engaged and then we all need to be prepred for the blood bath that will follow. It wont be the sporadic violence of Afganistan or the rag tag half hearted resistance of a demoralised Iraqi army. ISIS are organised, trained and very well armed with, it appears an unlimited supply of recruits arriving daily from around the world.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2015
  20. Hairyloon

    Hairyloon Active Member

    Which means that you cannot beat them with violence.
     
  21. Fastfreddy

    Fastfreddy Well-Known Member

    I did think that but now I am not so sure. At the moment they feel invincible and that right (Allah) is on their side i.e. the justification principle.

    ISIS can not be allowed to carry on doing what they are doing now, can they. What do you see as the solution(s)
     
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